Zoë Maughan: Hi, this is Zoë Maughan, it is May 18, 2023. I'm meeting with Jenny Masculine is at Fat Straw in Portland. Thank you for joining me. I'm wondering if you could start by stating your name and just telling me a little bit about yourself.
Jenny Masculine: My name is Jenny Masculine and I am a population epidemiologist in Clackamas County. And I've been in Portland for a little over a year now.
ZM: So starting with just some background information, I'm wondering if you could just tell me a little bit about your family. And we'll get into more details for what you'd like to share.
JM: Yeah, so my family came to Jacksonville, Florida, from Vietnam, in the 90s. And Jacksonville is a large naval city. With that background, there is a large immigrant population there. And I was there until pretty much until I got married in 2016, when I moved to Kansas City, but my mom, my aunt, and my grandmother are still there.
ZM: OK, great. What part of Vietnam is your family from?
JM: My mom is from Da Nang, which is a central area. And my grandmother is from Hue.
ZM: I'm wondering if you could share a little bit more about when your family left Vietnam and if you know what the process was like for them?
JM: Yeah, I know. So apparently, in the aftermath of the Vietnam War, there was this bill or something passed, stating like if you're a child of an American citizen, or an American soldier, you're considered a citizen, and that will grant you entry into the country. And so my mom is half Vietnamese. And her father who died was an American soldier. And that allowed her, my grandmother, and my aunt to gain passage to the United States. And they stayed in the Philippines for a couple of years after starting that process. And I know when they came to the United States, they actually have an uncle in Houston, Texas, but when trying to call and contact him, he didn't pick up the phone. And so they ended up in Florida instead, because they try to pair you with family first, and then if it doesn't work out, then, you know, a city of preference, but they just kind of said like, just bring us wherever.
ZM: Right. Do you know if there are—you alluded to this a little bit—but if there are organizations, family members, or friends that helped your family establish themselves when they arrived?
JM: Yeah. So when they came to Jacksonville, Florida, there was kind of like a small community of Vietnamese people there already. Like from fleeing from the Vietnam War, or aftermath or other kids that were children of American soldiers. I do remember, it was a really tight knit community. Because it was kind of like, you know, you would cook food for one another, or someone would watch your kid or, there's just kind of like, people that maybe you're not as close with, but it's like because you're Vietnamese, they share that kinship.
ZM: Yeah, that makes sense. Do you know what it was like for your family, your mother, to adjust to life in the US? Do you know what that process was like?
JM: I do remember it being difficult. Because at the time, only my aunt knew a little bit of English. And so when she came, she actually went to high school. So I know that was probably rough for her. But I guess it wasn't that difficult. Because when I was asking my mom about this, she was saying the government or the social worker, whoever, they helped them a lot. They are the ones who fought, they got them with Medicaid and food stamps and just kind of helped find housing and things like that. So I guess it was really good back then. Because I know there's a lot of difficulties with that now.
ZM: Yeah. Roughly what ages were they?
JM: My mom was in her early 20s. OK, I know that she was born in 1969. And this might have been 1990. OK.
ZM: Gotcha. And do you know what she and your grandmother did for work? You said your aunt was in high school.
JM: So yeah, my mom worked at a Chinese restaurant, just kind of doing cashier or dishwasher, and my grandmother worked… she did laundry at a hotel.
ZM: I wonder if you could talk a little bit about your childhood and the environment or neighborhoods you grew up in.
JM: I remember mostly, before we moved into our house, it seems like we went from apartment to apartment a lot. But it kind of seemed like the apartments became upgrades, if that makes sense. Like it would be something like squalor, and then getting it off something a little bit bigger, and then something a lot bigger. So that was kind of cool. But I do remember not seeing my folks a lot, because they were always working. And just someone was always taking care of us. It was probably not someone in the family though. And I'm trying to think about it, because I was talking to my husband about it, and he was like, “Well, you had a really rough childhood.” And I was like, “I don't remember it, but OK.” Definitely, definitely high stress situation. But I never really felt like I was in a poor position. We would have been categorized as living under poverty at the time. But honestly, I think my family always worked hard and they got us what we wanted, so it never felt like that. Right? Like you always had new clothes for the beginning of the school year. There was always food on the table, you know, things like that. But apparently back then it was really relevant.
ZM: Can you talk a little bit about going to school? Maybe we could start with elementary, but what your experience was like going to school?
JM: I will say it was pretty… More white predominant. Like even though there were other minorities. Oh, I do remember, I think it was the early 2000s, I don't think it's called Bosnia anymore. But there was a war. And there was a high influx of immigrants from or refugees from that country. And I feel like a lot. I just remember that. And it was interesting, because I remember—so even though they look white, like the physical appearance—there were still kids making fun of kids. They just kind of… yeah, it's just like a cultural difference. I remember that was something that kind of left an impression on me, because it's kind of like, well, you look physically different, or you look physically the same, but kids are gonna still find something to make fun of you.
And then in middle school, I think it was just because of how I reacted, I was bullied because of how I looked. And that kind of led to some lower self esteem. My mom had cancer when I started middle school. [ZM: I’m so sorry.] I mean, she's been in remission forever, like, forever. So she's doing swell, but I never really saw her much because she was in a hospital two hours away, because of this specialized cancer treatment. And then in high school, I ended up just kind of doing my own thing. Still had family that worked a lot. I saw more of my grandmother, because she retired. And then my aunt had two girls, and so my grandmother wanted to take care of them. And then in college, I was able to buckle down more and did well in my studies. But yeah, then it was kind of like, when my mom wasn't working as much, because I was in school, I was working. And I was working as well. I didn't see her a lot either. So it was a lot of like, kind of just passing by one another it seems like.
ZM: Did you work while you were in high school?
JM: I did not. I worked when I was in college.
ZM: Gotcha. So growing up in Florida, I'm wondering if you—you've spoken to this a little bit— but felt a connection to the Vietnamese community there and how that manifested, if so.
JM: I didn't really feel a connection because… so when growing up, Vietnamese was our first language but everyone was learning English. So it wasn't something remembered. And when I kind of met the first group of Vietnamese kids, it was actually in high school. So a lot further along. They knew how to speak Vietnamese and it felt like I wasn't a part of that because I didn't know Vietnamese, or when I would try to speak it, they wouldn't understand it. So there wasn't like this feeling of connection too much. It was kind of more of like, I don't belong on this side, either.
ZM: Right, kind of being stuck in the middle. During that time, did you participate in any religious or community organizations?
JM: I was in a church at the time. The lady who my mom worked for, she went to a Chinese church and when my mom had cancer, she would bring my sister and I. I guess that's really it.
ZM: So also as a child, or in your youth, did anyone encourage you to learn about Vietnamese language, culture, tradition? And if so, how was that encouraged?
JM: It wasn't encouraged at all, actually. Like I said in the beginning, everyone was kind of doing their own thing, learning to speak English and things like that. It was more like, you know, just do good in school, or stay out of trouble. And that was really it. I didn't really develop an interest in my culture until in my undergrad year of high school, and then like, not high school, sorry, in college. And then even more so when I had my daughter.
ZM: Yeah. So that was kind of my next question was, are there things that you are trying to instill in your daughter that…?
ZM: Yeah, so something pretty cool about Portland, there's a school in Rose Park. Yeah, it's the Vietnamese integration, or dual language, program and we're hoping to try to get my daughter in there. But obviously, it's kind of like her preference as well. Like if she… we're not going to, my husband and I, we're not going to force her if she doesn't have this interest. But we would celebrate Vietnamese New Year's together and like trying to instill that or like, you know, I would have my mom… she talks to my mom almost every day because I talk to my mom. And we would try to do video chats and my mom would read to her in Vietnamese like some storybooks. Which is surprisingly, really hard to find, like Vietnamese picture books for kids, like board books. But I will say there's more resources now compared to when I was trying to learn, and I've been trying to learn, speak more Vietnamese, but it's been really hard, just because I don't have anyone to speak it with. Yeah, like, I can speak it with my mom, but it's like as my both my husband and I are trying to learn Vietnamese, it's just difficult because… one thing is having that discipline to do it yourself and then it's just like not being able to retain it because you're not speaking it.
ZM: Does your husband have Vietnamese heritage as well?
ZM: Okay. That's wonderful that you're learning together, though. Multnomah County libraries do Vietnamese storytimes for children, but I know it's not always the most convenient location.
JM: It’s out in Gresham. Right now it's in the Gresham area, but they did have it off of Sandy for a little bit. But that's it. I did find out that there was a daycare run by a Vietnamese gal, but I didn't find out until my daughter was in preschool.
ZM: So shifting a little bit to college and career, I'm wondering if you could tell me about where you went to college and how you made that decision?
JM: My decision for college was a little tricky because I stayed the first two years for community college. (ZM: In Florida?) Yeah, in Jacksonville, Florida. And I was applying to several different schools and there was a bit of conflict in my family at the time, so I didn't really want to stay home. But I think as it got closer to school starting, I was enrolled already for the University of Central Florida, which is in Orlando. I was enrolled already, I was ready for classes, ready to move in. And then I had a heart to heart with my mom and I applied last minute to the University of North Florida, which is in my hometown, and got in there and that's where I did school, pretty much. I was trying for nursing but didn't get in and started in health science, specifically public health and graduated there. And I finished my degree, my master's last year actually. (ZM: Congratulations.) Thanks. I started in the beginning of the pandemic, because, you know, when I think there's… I remember someone saying when there's something very large and impactful, a lot of people make these life transitions, quitting work to find a job that they love, or going back to school, or starting their own business, things like that. So I went back to school. (ZM: Where did you attend for that?) Kansas State University. And it was all online, it was a pretty great program.
ZM: Is there a specific, maybe a memory you have of becoming interested in public health? Or did you feel like that was kind of just like a natural progression from wanting to be in nursing and then kind of shifting over to that?
JM: Well, originally, my plan was to go into nursing. And then from there, be a nurse practitioner or be a doctor. And then when I didn't get into the program, the next plan was going into health science, and then going to be a doctor. But I really liked the program. I worked with patients for a little bit after graduating, and I just kind of realized, I wasn't… not that I'm not a people person, but I think when you're a patient, you're in a special situation where you're maybe not as understanding, that you're a little more impatient, things like that. And that wasn't for me, that wasn't something that I felt like I could handle. So I just felt like I couldn't be a doctor. And I'm glad I made that realization, because, of course, the pandemic happened. I think there was like a lot of highly stressed out people and like nurses, doctors, and everyone.
ZM: For sure. So you told me before, but you moved to Portland in 2022, to become a population epidemiologist with Clackamas County. And I'm wondering if you were looking to relocate to Portland specifically or… let's start with that. And then I'll do the other part.
JM: So after I graduated with my master’s, I was applying for PhD programs. And I applied to PSU, and then I did apply to UW, I applied to Emory, which is in Atlanta. I feel like I applied to one more school, but I don't recall. And I didn't get into any, which was fine, but my husband and I were talking and we made plans long ago that I would be applying in the Northwest. And we went out and visited in March 2022, we went to visit both Seattle and Portland, just to see what it was like, you know, where would we want to live more? Like where should I put more of my energy? And we decided on Portland just because we felt like Seattle was more… was a bigger rush. And the reason why we decided in the Northwest, is because we wanted our daughter, and of course ourselves, to be in a bigger Vietnamese community. That was our main priority. And we saw that actually, Seattle also has a Vietnamese integration program, and we saw that Portland had it. So those two were our top choices and got to Portland, so I moved to Portland.
ZM: Great. I'm curious if you could talk about maybe some of your first impressions of the city on that trip, but then also maybe if they differed at all, once you moved here.
JM: I’ll admit, on the trip, [I] saw the homelessness and that was kind of concerning. But then again, that was kind of how I got my job because the State of Oregon Legislature, they passed a public health modernization, which increased funding so a bunch of public health professionals, were moving to Portland. And it was to help solve problems related to equity, climate change, things like that. I'll admit it was really intimidating at first. We were taking public transport and we would see… we would have interactions with people who were houseless and they may have had mental illness or displayed it and it was just a little off putting. But then at the same time, we thought it was really beautiful. We came in the spring and that was when the cherry blossoms were in bloom. So we accidentally stumbled into that and that was beautiful, and we stayed in Woodstock. And just being able to walk around was really beautiful. And how that changed from moving now like, oh, I’ll admit in the beginning, I think because it was a lot of high stress, I was kind of worried. Did I make the right decision? Because you kept hearing things like, Portland's no longer on the top places to live or that the population is dwindling, and things like that. And it's just like, “Oh, what have I done?” But the longer we stayed here and actually have a house, and then the stress started going away. We felt it was a really good decision for our family.
ZM: That's a really big move, so it makes sense. I'm curious what you see is next for you and your career, what of some of your goals for that are?
JM: To be honest, I really don't know. And I say that because my end goal was to be an epidemiologist. (ZM: You've arrived.) Yeah, so it's like I haven't really made any. There's certain projects I would love to work on. I guess as a goal like I would like to get out of Clackamas County, just because there are certain views that don't align in a political sense and it just feels like I'm not making as impactful of a change. I would be really interested in Washington County, because they all have their ducks in a row. Multnomah County, they just hired a new director for public… I think it was public health, or maybe a data team. So they're starting to get their things together, but it's just kind of like a hot mess over there. So if Multnomah gets better, I would actually love to work for Multnomah, because this is a way for me to learn what's happening in my county and my community. I can tell you a lot of things about Clackamas, but I can't tell you a lot about Multnomah.
ZM: Right. So I'm curious—I know that this is always a big question—just kind of like, what does a day in the life typically look like for you?
JM: Well, on the weekdays, I start work at 6:30. And then I take a small break to take my daughter to school around nine. And then I go back to work. And I get off at five. I have 10 hour days, working four days a week. Usually my husband cooks dinner. It kind of depends on our daughter, but we would try to go to take a walk or go to the library, or she'll end up watching TV. Which is perfectly fine too, it kind of sucks but it’s like… (ZM: Kind of a reality.) Yeah, I feel like it's just the reality. I'm pretty sure we're one of the few neighbors with a TV. I don't know how to say that. On Fridays, I take care of my daughter, which is really nice and it kind of just depends on her mood, what she wants to do like, oh, can we go to the zoo if it's a nice day or, you know, maybe we'll go to the library if it's nice to go out and just things like that. And my husband gets off at 2:30, so when he gets off, we try to do something together. But that's about it. And I guess on the weekends, we try to do something together as a family, but it could just be like on Sunday, because we did so much on Saturday, we just need to relax.
ZM: That makes sense. For work, do you work in the office or remote or a bit of both?
JM: I'm hybrid, so I go in to work once a week.
ZM: So shifting over to kind of our more community-based section. I'm curious if you could talk a little bit about how the Vietnamese communities you've experienced, or not, in Florida, Kansas City, and Portland kind of compare to each other.
JM: I would say in Florida, there was… I didn't meet as many people my age. I want to say there wasn't that many first generation Americans. And then in Kansas City, I only met one or two. It was very insignificant. Apparently, they all lived… I lived in the Kansas side of Kansas City and they lived in Missouri. It was deeply religious, I'm pretty sure. And here, it was just kind of like… I feel like this is sad to say, but it's kind of like, I feel like it's everywhere. We were voting, because we're in District Three, and it's like, that's a Vietnamese last name on the ballot! That's crazy. (ZM: Yeah, that we have five Vietnamese legislators in Oregon now.) Yeah, and a part of me is just like, “Whoa, they're in politics!” Just like, I've never seen that or I had a friend telling me that most of the Asian markets here are Vietnamese markets. And I remember going to Hong Phat the first time, I was like, “Oh, this looks like a legit grocery store.” Like I wasn't expecting this. So it feels like in Florida, it was like they were trying to claw and make a niche. And in Kansas City, it felt non-existent. I don't know how they ended up in Kansas City. And then here, it's just kind of like, “Oh, this is crazy.” I see a lot more of half Vietnamese, or not… half Asian, half white children. Because my daughter is mixed. And it's crazy, because I remember my daughter said, once she's like, “That kid looks like me.” I was like, “Yeah!” That was really… it never came across my mind that that's something she's soaking in, of like, “Oh, that kid looks like me.” Or like, someone else is speaking Vietnamese and she can understand them. And just like those small things that you don't notice, it's just normalized here. I can't think of any others because it's like, in Florida, you would see Vietnamese people working at nail salons or they have restaurants. But here, it's just like, in almost any niche in business.
ZM: Yeah. I want to backtrack a little bit. I realized I don't think I asked what brought you to Kansas City. Was that that you were—
JM: I got married. My husband was there. And I got a job there and moved.
ZM: Okay, gotcha. So we've talked to this a little bit already, but can you describe if you feel a connection to the community here in Portland now?
JM: I'll admit, I kind of don't, because it seems like here like on the Facebook group, they're also all Vietnamese speaking. And that's a little hard when you're not able to read or speak the language. But at the same time, I'm so happy that there's a large community, but at the same time, I feel like I'm not a part of it either. I kind of wish that… I'm not sure how you'd be a part of a community if you're not like, born into it or raised into it. I know back in Florida, for the Vietnamese community, it was just like, they were all immigrants who kind of knew one another and got together that way. And here, it's kind of like, people already know each other, it seems like and it's kind of hard to go and break into that mold.
ZM: Yeah, especially when there's also you know—this is a great thing—but folks really dispersed throughout a lot of areas, professions, lifestyles, things like that.
ZM: Let's see. So the next question, I don't know if this will apply based on what we just discussed, but are there events you see that bring people together in the community or places in particular for gathering, things like that?
JM: I feel like definitely New Year's, like Vietnamese New Year's, or an autumn festival. But I feel like there's church gatherings that bring people together. But I can't think of anything else off the top my head, like from what I've seen.
ZM: Do you participate in any religious organizations today?
ZM: I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit to when you have felt most at home in Portland, and what appeals to you about the city. And that could also be a reflection of what you anticipated it being like, versus actually being here.
JM: I would say it was probably around when spring was starting, so you're kind of out of your winter blues. And in this case, I was already in a house. And I think finally being able to think about other things, aside from the necessities, like, oh, we have to unpack, we have to pay these bills, we have to do these things. I feel like that was when I first started feeling at home, it kind of seemed like it was like the March when we visited, like all the flowers were blooming. You know, things like that. But I would say another way when I start feeling at home is definitely when riding a bike, because it's very bike friendly here, which is really cool. And just like you see other people doing it. And I just think… like that's not an abnormal thing. Because I know back in Florida or Kansas City, you would ride a bike for leisure. Like you're just going out for a bike ride. Here, you can use it for transportation, and roads are made for it to be used for transportation, and that's really great. Yeah, that's what I can think of.
ZM: Yeah, for sure. This doesn’t have to be limited to Vietnamese businesses or community, but I’m wondering if you could share about some of your favorite places in Portland, whether that’s a park or a restaurant or another kind of business or a neighborhood. Just curious about that.
JM: We've been really liking the Belmont neighborhood. Not sure why, like we’ve just been going there a lot. But for places I frequently visit, I really like Collage because it's like… so one thing I noticed here, there's not big box stores. You have to go to the suburbs for that. So as more of an artsy creative person, that's where I would go to and it's really cool because it's supporting local, and [it] never occurred to me like this is a local art supply store. And actually, my pharmacist is a family, locally-owned pharmacy and I was like, “Oh, these things still exist!” And so just those things keep making an impression on me but honestly, for restaurants we always try something new, for coffee, drinks. We always try something new and we've enjoyed all of them so far. As for parks, I know our favorite is Mount Tabor but it's funny because we’ve only been there once. We go to Laurelhurst mostly because it's a 10 minute walk, and I like Laurelhurst, but we mostly explore playgrounds. And I know my daughter's favorite is Piccolo, it's called a pocket park. It's nested between houses and it's really small but it's really great, it's not intimidating or anything like that. That was the park that she would go to when we just moved here. I think that’s all the things I can think of.
ZM: I'm curious if you could share, if you feel like you can speak to this, a little bit about your husband's experience moving here and adjusting and if you've noticed anything with your daughter as well.
JM: I can't say too much about my husband because I feel like his experiences were very similar. But he's definitely more positive… more… I would say he's more stoic. For me, I'll be kind of concerned like, oh, did I make a mistake moving here and he's kind of like, it's just a stressful time, it wasn't a mistake moving here. And my daughter, I feel like she's a lot happier here. I don't know… she's able to engage other kids more and she loves riding the bikes. And I just think she likes it more here. Maybe it's because she's older and she can do more things, that could be what skews it. But I know something that she loves is riding the bikes, because she wants to take the bikes to go to the playground or to go here or there. It's been pretty enjoyable.
ZM: So kind of shifting here, do you want to share any experiences of racism or discrimination that you've experienced in Portland?
JM: I feel like I haven't really experienced anything in Portland. I'm trying to think about it and I don't think I have, honestly. I experienced it more in Kansas City. (ZM: I was going to say, now going back to the other places you have lived.) Yeah, in Kansas City, in the beginning of the pandemic, I definitely had stares and looks. I had someone make remarks to me. Growing up, I was bullied because I looked different, I was Asian. I know in Kansas City it really only began during the pandemic. But even outside of that, they were just kind of like remarks that, I think people thought were normal and then it actually wasn’t. (ZM: Like microaggressions?) Yeah, I remember I had a boss who said—he was selling a house—and they did the inspection and then they backed out because the inspection showed something that they weren't interested in and, you know, that's a very legitimate thing, like people can back out from an inspection. But he was saying something like, “This is why you don't deal with immigrants,” and I was like, “Oh… OK” [laughs].
ZM: So I'm wondering if you could share a little bit about, in your mind, what role does being Vietnamese play in your life?
JM: I think it plays a big aspect in my life in terms of an identity. Why I continue my career in public health, why I got my master’s, was that I wanted to help people, like my mom, not just feel coming to the United States, but people who may have shortcomings of English as their second language or maybe they didn't have the same resources like my mom did, where she had a social worker. I want to play that part in public health because you make changes throughout the community or in the county, and those changes impact everyone. I think that's one way to do it, especially if you're not embedded in the community. I know it's really important for me, for my daughter to learn it and speak it, because I remember when I was growing up, when I was younger, I was ashamed of being Vietnamese. I remember I was telling my mom that I wasn’t Vietnamese, I’m American. I remember my cousins, they are significantly younger than I am, but my aunt would speak Vietnamese to the older one. She would tell her friend, “I don't know what she's saying,” even though she would have. She's told my—in the beginning of the pandemic—she told my aunt to go back to her country. It's like, “That’s your mother.” You know, things like that. And it's just like, it's still seeing that there is still shame in not being part of the majority and people do single you out. I want my daughter to feel proud of that, that she is Vietnamese American. You know, my family went through a lot for her to have a life here. And not in a way of guilt tripping her, but I would like her to know that she doesn't need to be ashamed.
ZM: As you were talking about public health, I was just curious if you could speak to maybe what you see as a few of the big public health issues in Portland right now. And maybe if you can share a little bit about some of the work to do to mitigate that.
JM: So I do mostly data-related work. So it's more… we have community based organizations, they're doing the footwork basically. They're the ones creating these programs and actually doing something. But the data that I would provide them gives them the background of making a grant or a presentation, something to back their work even more. But as for issues I have noticed in Portland, I know it more in Clackamas. I know that fentanyl is a big concern and tobacco usage is a big concern in Clackamas. I know in Clackamas there's… suicide rates have increased, especially with usage of firearms. When looking at the past needs assessment, I know people don't feel safe walking out. So not really having that neighborhood, you don't feel safe, you don’t feel that it’s a place you can call home. Those are the issues that I can think of at the moment.
ZM: That makes sense. I’m wondering if you could share a little bit about the differences that you see between older and younger generations of Vietnamese Americans and what they can learn from each other. And this can be personal, I know it's… I don’t want to make a sweeping generalization but just kind of your personal experience.
JM: I'm not really sure just because… I think it's different because my mother, she came here as an immigrant, while I'm a first generation American and I know kind of like from what she sees there's… for example, my grandmother has Alzheimer's now, so she's taking care of my grandmother now and making these big, life-sacrificing commitments to her. Because, you know, being a caretaker is a lot of work. For me, on the other hand, if I have the means to, why not just hire someone to kind of help out or maybe do a nursing home [and] just visit daily, or things like that. For my mom, that's not the same thing. I understand it from her perspective, but I think at the same time… I think her perspective is definitely more community-oriented, like this is my mother, this is the person who cared for me. While my perspective is definitely more looking at the individual of what's better for my mental health, what’s better for my daily routines and things like that. And I think, from what they can learn from one another, it's bits and pieces of that, like I wish my mom cared for herself more, but I think she feels that she can’t because she needs to take care of her mom. What I take from my mom is that I do prioritize my family, and I do see my family as very important. I know for an example, we already made these plans, but whenever my grandmother passes away, I would fly off to Florida and stay there for a month. And for my husband, that's kind of abnormal because he was like, “That's a long time. What are you going to do there?” And I was like, “I'm going to be there for my mom. Like what do you mean what am I doing out there?” [laughs] And he’s just like, “OK.”
ZM: So that was my last question for you. I'm wondering if there's anything that we haven't talked about that you want to discuss.
JM: Not really.
ZM: Great. I'll close us out. So thank you so much for meeting with me. Again, this is Zoë Maughan speaking with Jenny Masculine. It’s May 18, 2023 and we are at Fat Straw in Portland.